Sorry Bro, but you are wrong on almost every one of your bullet point solutions. Everything that the government does to try to fix our problems almost always makes it worse. The sub-prime mortgage fiasco is a classic example. If the free market had been left to itself, those loans would never had been made. It was only because of government backing that the lending institutions dared to make the loans. After all, it was no skin off their noses. It’s true that free enterprise is fueled by greed and the government should regulate and manage it, but lately all the government has done is facilitate the greed?
Ultimately the cash for clunkers program will be proven to be the boondoggle that it is. Government bailouts of all kinds are a disaster. We are already seeing that.
I can’t even bear to think about what a nightmare government run healthcare would be. There has never yet been a government program that was well-managed and had a price tag that was affordable.
The free market, on the other hand, has consistently proven itself over and over. Freedom is what made this country great. Yet we are so quick to turn to the government for solutions. The backbone that we need is the courage to put a stop to the government’s intrusion in our lives.

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Generally agree with you, except for Single-Payer. We really don’t want to go down that road – it will lead to more power going to the bureaucrats and less control over our own lives.

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Okay my brother, and for those who don’t know Dan is my brother. I’ll take your challenge. You say I’m “wrong on almost every one of [my] bullet points, which ones? You don’t want public accountability of public corporations? They created the recession and near depression. Should their Executives still get bonuses? How about the congress kicking out lobbyists? Are you against that too? Are you against the rebuilding of American manufacturing? Are you advocating that American Corporations should make their money selling here without paying a higher price for taking jobs out of the country? If the government decides to do a Cash for Clunkers type stimulus in the future, and I’m not saying they should, wouldn’t it make more sense to make sure they buy American? If the government deems it necessary to bail out any company, and again I’m not condoning that approach, don’t you want to make very sure that the money is used for the benefit of the public and not just to line the pockets of the already rich.? Do you think that influence peddling with lawmakers should be tolerated? Leaving single payer health care aside, do you think the American taxpayer should foot the bill to be the military policemen of the world? Why should we have to do that? Did God mandate us as a warrior country? Are you against paying down the national debt? You couldn’t want to continue being at the mercy of the Chinese and Mid-East interests–are you? Those are my bullet points, with the exception of single payer health care which needs more space to argue, but I will. Oh yes, I will.

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Let me address at least a few of the issues.

The best way to make public corporations accountable is to make them suffer the consequences of their own mismanagement. They screw up, we bail them out, and they keep screwing up. What incentive do they have to set their houses in order? Rather than bail them out, they should have been allowed to go into a chapter 11 bankruptcy, where they would have had to account to a judge for their executive bonuses, and believe me, they would not have passed muster.

Concerning lobbyists, although I agree that some kind of lobby reform is necessary, to “permanently ban lobbyists” kills our constitutionally protected right to petition our government. If you do it to one, you have to do it to all, and I’m not ready to give up that right yet, are you?

Regarding American products, I agree with what Steve Naegele had to say last week. For too long American companies have foisted inferior products on us, covering them up with glitzy advertising. Americans have no reason not to buy American products except when they aren’t as good. People are still willing to beat a path to the door of the person with the best mousetrap. Why keep propping up flawed and overpriced products with TARP money and/or punitive taxes? The house of cards eventually has to fall. Alternatively, force American Industry to innovate by taking away the safety net and it will be amazing what they will come up with.

Neither you nor I have received any bailout money from our government to keep our small businesses going. So what did we do? We innovated.

(By the way, this is how I held Citibank accountable for their ridiculous executive bonuses: I canceled the Citibank account that I have had for 20 years. If everybody did the same, Citibank would clean up their act, believe me.)

Regarding the military, your plan is too extreme. The President needs to be able to act swiftly to protect American interests without being handcuffed. There should be some sort of statute of limitations, though, on non-declared wars.

Regarding the national debt, I agree with that one. We need to pay down the debt.

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Dan, I can see that we do not quite understand one another yet. The thing you are forgetting is that most of our troubles with government come from favoritism. Money is given to a congressman, favors are expected, and laws are passed. The sure way to becoming wealthy is by getting elected. I wonder why that is? Sure, they cite the high cost of running a campaign and the need for continual fund raising, but how does that bar get raised election after election? It gets raised because they feel they have to outspend their competition. Take away the lobbyists with deep pockets and I’m willing to bet they could find other ways to impress the electorate rather than through expensive advertising campaigns. They might have to convince it with means other than sound bites.

You are concerned that kicking out lobbyists would negatively impact our ability to “petition our government for redress of grievances.” How effective are we now? Unless you’ve got the green you might as well be talking to the Washington monument.

You’ve said that the mortgage mess was created by congress. Yes they had a part in it, but who do you think was lobbying congress to change banking laws so this could happen? If businesses, including farmers who get subsidies for not farming, really had to rely on their wits and know-how instead of doles, we would all be better off. By the way, many of the richest people in America use the farm subsidies to fatten their wallets. They aren’t farmers, nor do they ever intend to be farmers. Some of those wealthy folks have seats in congress. Talk about conflicts of interest.

Do you get it yet? Do you really believe that there is such a thing as the free market? There will never be a free market as long as congress and business interests are joined at the hip together. Take off the blinders. Let’s deal with reality. Businesses through lobbyists buy influence with the congress. The congress passes laws favorable to those businesses. The business makes more money so they can afford to up the ante and buy more influence. Where do we the Average Joe citizens stand? No where. That’s where.

The CIA has followed the condition of Americans over the last 25 years. Why the CIA, I don’t know, but you can read their report on the Internet (link). What do you think they found? The richest Americans are getting richer, and the middle-class is swiftly and surely sliding into the poor category. The split widens.

You have to start breaking the chain somewhere. Start with lobbyists, and then turn to the military. I say we have to stop wasting our money defending the world. WE CANNOT WIN. If we are fortunate to stomp out a problem somewhere in the world, another one pops up. It is endless.

By the way, don’t you love the Town Hall meetings? They are heated and they need to be. Working out health care should be discussed on every street corner. I heard one lady say in a news sound bite that, “We don’t want to fix the crack in the Liberty Bell, and we don’t want to fix health care!” How stupid is that? We like our broken system, huh? But dumb or not, at least she spoke her mind and I heard her all the way from Pennsylvania

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I agree that there is plenty of corruption in both government and big business. But, I’m still wondering how you get around the first amendment by permanently banning all lobbyist. It’s too extreme and opens a bigger can of worms than we have now.
Campaign reform, on the other hand, I could wrap my arms around and embrace. That would neuter the lobbyists and still keep the Bill of Rights intact.

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Dan, now we are getting somewhere. To argue the first amendment requires an understanding of it. The complete verbiage is “Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” I don’t see anywhere in the First Amendment the right for special access and I’m not proposing that lobbyists could not exercise their freedom of speech as American Citizens. It is the equalization of our rights that I’m after. Eliminating special interests from buying and holding the ears of our law makers is not infringing on their rights. They could, and should, redress the congress in the same ways available to us all. When money and power shout, we the people are drowned out. If you want to know why the free market system doesn’t work, you have to start with those who can change the playing field to favor their interests. No, I don’t think the permanent expulsion of lobbyists is too extreme. What it is is too late.

You said the same thing about the military, that my point was too extreme. What is extreme is our readiness and willingness to send our brothers and sisters into harm’s way based on misinformation and political winds. I said it before and I say it again, we should not be the policemen of the world. Take a look at Viet Nam. We fought there and lost fifty-thousand young Americans in a 10 year war. France was there before us. They had foreign boots in their land for two decades at least. What has happened to Viet Nam since we tucked our tails between our legs and ran? Is it hell on earth, or is now another country united and trying to help its citizens the best they can? Did you know that you can now book a vacation to tour Viet Nam? All I’m really saying is that we need to count to ten before launching wars and be very sure that the United States and its people will have better lives because of the war. Has your life improved since the fighting started in Iraq? If you aren’t sure, take a look at oil prices.

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Bill: Once you get rid of Congress I think you should fill the first empty seat. This is coming from a proud red-blooded American who desperately is searching for a new career after being let go from a small company that unfortunately could not stay afloat in this economy. They did have reserves and burned them up.

I fully agree with you about prohibiting lobbyists. Our government is not run by “the people” anymore, it’s run by those with power and money who are so far out of touch with middle America they wouldn’t know what to do if they were forced to balance a household budget with a mere $60k a year.

Thanks for your thoughtful banter with Dan. I’ve enjoyed it.

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I guess we might as well go full circle and rant about your bullet point on a single payer system for health care. You said we can’t afford the failure of anything short of a single payer system. I’m assuming you are talking about a system managed by federal bureaucrats.

If I hired somebody to manage my business I’d want to review their resumé and thoroughly check them out to see how well they have managed other similar businesses.

Before we hire the federal government to manage our health care system, I’d like you to answer one question: Is there anything you can think of that the federal government has managed well in the past at an affordable price tag?

I’ll be waiting for your answer.

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The problem is the answer to your question. There are things that are too big and too important for private industry to handle. Let’s look at the effectiveness of the health care system as it is. What is the ideal policy holder for the insurance company? One who pays their premiums and doesn’t submit claims, right? So what do they do? They selectively weed out those who need health care the most, and they reward their claims officers for claim denial. Every effort is extended to keep patients out of their pockets. Some of those efforts are illegal and require the patient to hire attorneys to get what was rightfully theirs to begin with. And that’s with the people lucky enough to have health insurance and can pay for it. What happens to all of the others? The ones bumped out because they exceeded their policy limits, or those who couldn’t afford it?

You ascertain that the Federal Government is incapable of running anything efficiently and affordable. Is that really true? It is very popular to rant against the government, bureaucrats, and public servants, why I’ve done it myself–often in fact. When I stop to really consider what I’m saying I realize that I’m criticizing all governmental employees too, because in mass they make up those bureaucracies. Then I embarrass myself when I realize that our father worked for government, your wife does too. We have at least one sister getting a government paycheck and some of the best people I’ve ever known are government employees. Granted they weren’t all working for the federal government some are employed by local entities, but government is government. They all operate in a similar way. I don’t know about you, but if the people I know are representative of the caliber of person working for the government we are in really good hands.

I’ve also been researching the question about the effectiveness of the Federal Government as compared to private industry. There are difficulties as you might imagine. In private industry it is easy to judge success by looking at the balance sheet. If profitable, you are successful. If unprofitable, you are not. Unless we changed the government model to a cash for services one we have to find other means of comparison. Another problem is that in private industry you can take advantage of opportunities or deal with losses by many means to raise capital. It doesn’t mean you’ll successfully raise the money you need, but it is possible. In government the money comes essentially from one source, the taxpayers. Improvements or changes take a couple of years to make because of the need for funding. The third comparison problem lies in the mission. The mission of private industry is to make a profit–that’s it make a profit. Oh they may talk about nobler motives and goals, but making a profit is what it is all about. That by the way isn’t a bad thing, the profit motive has brought us many wonderful advances. Government’s mission on the other hand is to protect the citizens. Again, profit is quantifiable, protection is not.

What are they protecting? They protect our right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Those are all abstract concepts and can be defined differently by every citizen, but that is the charge of our government. Life and Liberty seem somewhat straight forward, but what about the Pursuit of Happiness? If someone who has tried to protect themselves from financial disaster gets sick and spends their insurance limits, their health savings plan, their IRA’s, 401K’s and have to sell their house are they able to pursue happiness? Do they have a life? What happened to their liberty?

The other thing to consider is that I have been paying for government services for approximately 44 years. The combined taxes I pay for Federal, State, Local, Sales, Fee’s etc. well exceed 50% of everything I make. If I was able to keep more of that money over the years I could have accumulated a whale of an emergency fund. I find myself in a vulnerable position. This recession has cut my business in half. After 20 years of what most would consider to be excellent earnings, I now find myself struggling to pay my mortgage. Should either my wife or I fall ill, or get in an accident, we stand to lose everything. I say we are owed some security in the way of heath protection. They took the money I could have used to protect myself and so they owe me.

I have a lot more to say on the matter, but I’ve probably gone on too long as it is.

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Kathy was right about one thing. You should run for public office. Your answer tells me that you would fit right in with all the other politicians in Washington.

It’s a simple question. What has the federal government ever managed really well? I just want one example.

(Your second to the last paragraph was a joke, right? They have ripped you off for the last 44 years, so lets give them more power and brand new ways to rip you off even more. Are you kidding me?)

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Dan, I have been very gently trying to lead you into the light, but you seem to be stuck in some sort of dream world. In your world government is the enemy and businesses abide by fair rules of competition in a free market. Have you learned nothing from the collapse of the Financial Industry? The truth is neither can be trusted to do the right thing, but one thing is for sure Health Care run by Insurance companies will reward their management with multi-million dollar bonuses and do their best to keep people from getting the care they need. At least with government there is transparency of income. No public servant has a pay grade of those Greedy corporate heads.

The fundamental question you ask is, “What has the federal government ever managed really well?” Please go to this website and read about many things that are done well. You’ve got to stop listening to Sean Hannity. He isn't always right. He's just dug himself into a positional hole that doesn't allow him to consider other possibilities without ruining his career.

And no, my second to last paragraph was not a joke. The United Kingdom instituted national health care after WWII because they reasoned if the government could raise the money to fight a war and kill people, they could raise money for health care and heal people. It's not that we haven't had the resources to provide health care we've spent them in other ways like being the world's warriors. We have 26 military bases in Japan. Maybe having foreign bases was critical 65 years ago, but we can move troops much quicker now over great distances. We don't need them anymore.

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I glanced at the website you mentioned. They listed social security as something the federal government does right. I don’t even know how to respond to something that absurd.

I do believe that government has its place. There are some things that only government can or should do.

But, let me give you a specific and recent example (which I did not get from Sean Hannity) of how free enterprise has worked in the healthcare arena. Lasik. Here is a procedure that has not been covered by insurance. As a result the lasik industry has had to innovate, coming up with better ways of doing things to make their product marketable. In the last ten years, while healthcare has generally skyrocketed, lasik has dropped substantially in cost. You can now have your eyes done for half of what it cost ten years ago.

Both the evil and genius of free enterprise is greed. The profit motive keeps the innovation going. The role of government is to manage the greed so things don’t get out of hand. I’m glad that laws were passed to regulate monopolies.

If the federal government wants to help it should concentrate on the areas that need fixing. Here’s an example: tort reform. Every year billions of dollars that could be used to lower the cost of healthcare is sucked out of the system by litigation attorneys who are parasites on the system. I’m surprised there isn’t more of a public outcry against such a devastating abuse.

Our health care system is still the envy of the world. It has serious flaws, but it still works for most people. We already know where socializing the system will lead. It is not the answer.

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Bill – good post and good comments!
The “government can’t do anything” meme is an especially destructive one, for it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. After a generation of underfunding regulation, many are convinced regulation can’t work. After hiring inept people to do jobs he saw as unimportant, Bush watched his government bungle at every step (Remember “Good job, Brownie?”), and many took it as yet another lesson that government can’t do anything.
Yet medicare works at a fraction of the overhead of any private insurer, and its customer satisfaction is significantly higher than employer-provided insurance. And no capitalist democracy’s healthcare program simply ignores a fifth of its population. For every questionable tale we hear about Canadian delays, multiply times 50 million to get the Americans who never have adequate care, or 18,000 to get the number of us who simply die prematurely every year from inadequate coverage. Yes, the private system is really bang-up, don’t you think? All it needs it to kill off 18,000 of us each year. Efficient. Humane.

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I can’t resist making one last comment, then I need to quit ranting. Everybody probably stopped reading a long time ago.

This is to the guys who think Social Security is a well run government program. I’d like to make you an offer. When you enter the work force as a teenager, you pay me 15 percent of your income until you are 65. I’ll do what I want with it, and if there is anything left when you turn 65, I’ll try really hard to give you back a couple grand a month until you die. After you die, I’ll keep whatever is left.

I make this offer freely to anybody who is out there.

Enough said about government run programs. Wait! What is that distant sound I hear? It is the sound of free enterprise calling me. I need to quit blogging and go earn some money.

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Dan, you asked if there was anything that the government does right and you challenged me to find one. I thought that in the list Monte Asbury provided you would be able to find at least one thing, if not more. You know I have a beef with congress. The fault I see with the Social Security Administration is not with the bureaucracy but with congress robbing the funds and making laws that depleted any savings that could have accumulated for our retirement. As far as I know, and my wife and I are replete with OP’s (old people) in our world Social Security always gets the checks delivered on time and for the correct amounts. Believe me if they didn’t my wife would be shouting at them to fix it.

I’m still scratching my head over your example of Lasik. Of course Lasik competes in the free market BECAUSE it isn’t covered by insurance. I’ve said it before and I will say it again, insurance is welfare for doctors and hospitals. Doctor’s pre-health insurance didn’t enter the profession to get wealthy. It was a labor of love. Hospitals were often charitable institutions run by churches. I don’t know what a hospital administrator was paid then, but it wasn’t well into the six figures as it is today. The whole health insurance industry has created paperwork costs in the billions each year because they all have their “special” forms and ways they want things done. Follow the money. Who benefits from the Health Care Industry? The owners, stockholders, CEO’s, Presidents, Hospital Administrators, Doctors, and so on are the winners. Follow the money. Who benefits the most from our system? Not the patients. That’s for sure.

One more challenge, how do you know our health care system is the envy of the world? Who told you that? According to The World Health Organization we rank No.38 behind such countries as Costa Rica. World envy, someone’s been feeding you funny pills.

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Dan, sorry I was camping and couldn’t get to a computer until this morning. I wasn’t avoiding you or giving up. I can tell you that the number of clicks on this website since last Saturday when you wrote your post, total more than I’ve ever recorded before. I don’t think they’ve stopped reading.

I’ve addressed the difference between the operations of the Social Security Administration and the interference of congress. I agree Congress has ruined Social Security for all of us. Even though I’m nearing the age where I could be collecting, I don’t expect I’ll see much for a lifetime of contributions.

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WHO also listed France as number one. I lived in France for two years. I’ve been in their hospitals and have had friends undergo surgical procedures there. I can tell you unequivocally, if I had to have my appendix out, I’d choose the United States over France any day.

But back to the major point. Do you really think that if the Federal Government gets their hands on such a huge chunk of the economy as healthcare, that it will be any different than it is with social security or with defense? Consider the power pedaling, the lobbying influence, the abuse, the waste, on and on.

No. We can’t let the Federal Government get their hands in that pie. They have already shown us what they will do.

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By the way, I’m not anti government. There are a lot of things that only government can or should do.
But my original question was: “Is there anything you can think of that the federal government has managed well in the past at an affordable price tag?”

Most of what Monty listed were not federal programs or agencies. I don’t have anything against the public library system, which is local. Even on the federal level, I’m glad we have an FAA, or an FDA, or the FBI, and even though it sticks in my craw to say it, I suppose we need the IRS as well. But the mismanagement of every federal agency is legendary.

I’m glad we have the United States Postal Service, but I’m really glad we don’t have a “single payer” postal delivery option. I almost always chose to send my packages via UPS or Fedex, even though I pay a premium to do it.

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Dan Ruesch wrote “The sub-prime mortgage fiasco is a classic example. If the free market had been left to itself, those loans would never had been made. It was only because of government backing that the lending institutions dared to make the loans.”
Unfortunately, this is not quite true. The free market was almost left to itself. Most of what happened was made legal by deregulation. In 1980, Congress adopted the Depository Institutions Deregulatory and Monetary Control Act, which eliminated interest-rate caps and made sub-prime lending more feasible for lenders. In 1999 the Glass-Steagall Act was replaced by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act – this allowed commercial banks, investment banks and insurers to merge. FNMA (Fannie Mae) and FHLMC (Freddie Mac) were not goverment agencies; they were government sponsored enterprises that were publicly chartered but privately owned. In other words, the ‘government backing’ of most subprime loans was done by publicly traded companies.

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Guys! Great arguments and good food for thought!

Every registered voter needs to be a part of your discussion, and take the time to at least think about what has happened to us and our nation!

We all need to get up off our asses and take back our country. If the fiasco of a health care program presently before congress is so good, then why is it not mandatory that our President, our congressmen and senators be under the same plan. The same for social security and any other government programs.

That’s just common sense. If Obama, or any elected official is really for change then let them simply put their money where their mouth is and actually “Walk the Talk”.

Our forefathers are rolling over in their graves at the apathy and the lack of courage and conviction, we presently have in America. We have no one to blame but ourselves. The only reason our elected officials have the “Golden Fleece” programs for themselves is that we allowed it. We have allowed them to think for us, and become so egotistical in their thinking that decisions are made that they think are in our best interest because we are not looking and we are incapable of doing it ourselves.

Until we take back the power from the Washington Czars, and once again let the politicians know we are their bosses, nothing is going to change.

We all need to take an active part in educating ourselves in what is really going on in Washington, getting and studying the facts for ourselves and then demanding that our politicians step down from office if they do not follow the mandate of the people.

We will only get out of our Government what we are willing to put into it. If we really want change, we must become active participants, and then vote our convictions!

Thanks for your active discussion and hopefully more will take notice.

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Dan, here’s a thought–what if the mighty insurance industry became fearful that the people would demand public health care and put them out of business? What impact do you think that would have on them instituting real change? We are shooting ourselves in the foot and empowering the insurance juggernaut to call the government the boogie man in this deal. You and people like you make them very happy. Their millions in executive bonuses will continue unchecked because we are afraid of government. Even if we didn’t want government health care it is a very bad strategy to grovel at the feet of the insurance gods. It would be better to make them afraid, then we would see real change come about. As it is there is no incentive for them to change anything except raise their prices again next year, and deny more claims, and refuse coverage.

One out of six Americans cannot afford health insurance. That number rises every year. How long will it be before it is one out of two? Eventually the only ones who will have health coverage will be those who work for government entities. When that happens all covered Americans will be under a government paid program. Isn’t that a kick in the pants? The rest of us who don’t work for governments will just have to suffer, I guess.

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